Banana Pi BPI-M2 Berry Allwinner V40 Development Board, Allwinner Business Units & SDK/Software Management

SinoVoIP has unveiled yet another new board with Banana Pi BPI-M2 Berry this week-end. It’s actually quite similar to Banana Pi BPI-M2 Ultra board, by they replaced Allwinner R40 with Allwinner V40 processor, removed some features, and use Raspberry Pi 3 form factor. If we look at Allwinner V40 product brief we can see the specifications look almost identical, with V40 potentially exposing an extra CAN bus. The company’s announcement was very confusing since they show Banana Pi BPI-M2 Berry board with Allwinner R40 instead of Allwinner V40.

Banana Pi BPI-M2 Berry

Banana Pi BPI-M2 Berry specifications:

  • SoC – Allwinner V40 quad Core ARM Cortex A7 processor with ARM Mali-400MP2 GPU
  • System Memory – 1G DDR3 SDRAM
  • Storage – micro SD slot, SATA interface
  • Connectivity – 1x Gigabit Ethernet port, 802.11 b/g/n WiFi and Bluetooth 4.0 (AP6212 module)
  • Video Output – HDMI 1.4 port up to 1080p60, 4-lane MIPI DSI display connector
  • Audio I/O – HDMI, 3.5mm headphone jack, built-in microphone
  • USB – 4x USB 2.0 host ports, 1x micro USB OTG port
  • Camera – CSI camera connector
  • Expansion – 40-pin Raspberry Pi compatible header with GPIOs, I2C, SPI, UART, ID EEPROM, 5V, 3.3V, GND signals.
  • Debugging – 3-pin UART for serial console
  • Misc – Reset, power, and u-boot buttons
  • Power Supply – 5V via micro USB port; AXP221s PMIC
  • Dimensions – 85mm x 56mm

The Wiki is also shared for BPI-M 2 Ultra/Berry boards. The company also showed a picture of BPI-M2 Ultra with Allwinner V40 confirming both processors are  pin-to-pin-compatible.

BPI-M2 Ultra Board with Allwinner V40 Processor

Allwinner Business Units

So why bother doing different processors since they are so similar? Last time, we were told Allwinner A64 and R18 had different SDKs, so it should be the same for R40 and V40. Allwinner has different family of processors dedicated to different market segments: A-series are application processors, H-series are for home entertainment, R-series for the IoT, and V-Series for video camera applications. In some ways, it makes sense to have different business units that specialize in specific market segments. If you customer wants to make an action camera redirect him to the V-series guys, a TV box that’s for H-series, and so on.

There’s been a long-ish discussion about Allwinner business units on CNX Software. What has apparently been happening is that some processors can be used across market segments, so they have duplicates (or close to it) with for example Allwinner A64/R18 that’s just the same chip but assigned to a different business unit. Each business unit work and release their own SDK, and based on different Linux and Android version for different SDK, there does not seem common work across business units, and they appear to have separate software teams.  The processors are differentiated by “CHIP ID”, and by default you can’t run firmware generated by R18 SDK on A64, and vice-versa, since the bootloader will detect the ID and prevent the software to run.  That also looks like a bad idea, since for example a software bug fixed on Allwinner R18 SDK, may go unnoticed on Allwinner A64 for years etc… So ideally all business units should get their software from a single team taking care of low level software (bootloader/kernel/drivers), middleware (Android/rootfs), while software developers’ part of a given business unit may work on the market specific software.

Jon had more insights on this business organization:

The R group is releasing a different SDK for the R18. They are not using the A64 one. That strongly suggests to me two sets of software people. A single software group would have simply added the R18 extras into the A64 SDK.

You want a centralized Linux and Android group. Then inside that group you develop specialists. For example the DMA person, the UART person, the Ethernet person, etc. That person is responsible for driver support over all of the CPUs Allwinner makes. They become experts on this piece of the SOC. The output of this group is a single SDK that supports all Allwinner processors. Like what mainline Linux is doing for Allwinner SOC currently. Not the single CPU kernels that AW keeps releasing.

Then you can give this central software group two instructions:
1) Add a new SOC to the existing base. Each specialist will extend their existing driver to add support for the new SOC. Not cut and paste then edit to make a new driver! That happens with separate groups.
2) Add support for a new kernel or Android release. Everyone in the group works together to bring all of the SOC support up to this new release. This is not that hard now since each expert in their niche will know exactly what the issues are.

The central group allows these vertical specialists to exist. Having the chip groups do it results in a lot of copy/paste/edit (which we see in spades) and many bugs because the work is having to be done by generalist assigned to the group. When the programmers belong to the hardware groups Allwinner is creating “port and forget” specialists.

and also mentioned it’s been tried before, and failed:

This awful management style was practiced by most of the US semiconductor industry in the 1990’s. Most have discovered that it was a really bad way to do things and have reorganized.

This management style occurs when chip people end up in top management at these SOC companies. They treat everything like a chip and software is definitely not a chip. But these “chip heads” don’t know much about software so they can’t see how bad this organization design is for long term support. You can’t blame the “chip heads” for acting this way, it is the only area they have worked in. What they are doing is the correct model for making chips.

Now I don’t have detailed internal org charts for Allwinner. But I used to work for US companies that had this exact management structure before realizing how messed up it was. Only after a couple of very expensive failed launches of new chips because the software supporting them didn’t work did management change.

Another not-directly related complain is that Allwinner will also release the source code as tarballs, and they don’t have a git (or other revision control system) repository accessible to customers, for example like Amlogic or Rockchip already do. Instead they release those large tarballs, and then linux-sunxi community may import the u-boot/Linux kernel part to github, and work on them, although those days, they may prefer to focus on mainline rather than on Allwinner SDK releases.

Jean-Luc started CNX Software in 2010 as a part-time endeavor, before quitting his job as a software engineering manager, and starting to write daily news, and reviews full time later in 2011.

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Alex
Alex
3 years ago

@agumonkey
The V40 board is freshly cooked, there is still flux on the V40 chip 😀

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

@agumonkey The picture with V40 on it shows the BPi M2 Ultra and not M2 Berry. The guy doing ‘documentation’, ‘specifications’ and announcements at SinoVoip is maybe the most careless person on this planet (or lost his brain somewhere years ago). You can replace R40 with V40 as you can replace R16 with A33 and R58 with A83T and so on. But that’s not the news here. They can replace R40 with V40, show us that they did with at least one M2 Ultra sample, show us clearly they provide M2 Berry with R40 but the confused person writing their… Read more »

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

@Jean-Luc Aufranc (CNXSoft): You’re also confused by their weird announcement. This Berry here is something different than the Ultra board. It simply doesn’t matter whether they use V40 or R40 on either board but the other differences matter. And this Berry thing is a stripped down Ultra version aiming at Raspberry Pi users that will be lured with the claim BPi-M2 Berry would be just like a Raspberry Pi 2 but with much faster network and true SATA (they provide even Raspbian OS images people will fail with since config.txt and cmdline.txt aren’t used with R40/V40). I would assume it’s… Read more »

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

@Jean-Luc Aufranc (CNXSoft) Huh? These are two totally different designs, the ‘Ultra’ matches dimensions and connector placement of their M3 and M64 but Berry is (just another) RPi clone here (like ODROID-C1/C2, NanoPi K2, ASUS Tinkerboard, MiQi board or soon to be released Rock64 — unfortunately only the latter and the 2 ODROIDs do not feature the moronic DC-IN variant called Micro USB). Just look at the pictures at their ‘documentation’ wiki and compare hardware ‘specs’ for example: https://bananapi.gitbooks.io/bpi-m2-ultra-open-source-single-board-computer/content/bpi-m2-berry-hardware/bpi-m2-berry-hardware-spec.html (of course clockspeed listed there are all plain bullshit since the careless person doing this kind of ‘specification writing’ always suffers… Read more »

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago


Ultra vs Berry is not about R40 vs. V40 (that’s just their stupid announcement suggesting) but Ultra following their usual design style and Berry following RPi as close as possible (board dimensions, connector and mounting hole placement and maybe even price).

They can replace R40 with V40 and vice versa on either board anyway (but this might then require a different boot0 blob — TBC)

JotaMG
JotaMG
3 years ago

cnxsoft:
” I should have spent more time double-checking their pictures.”
Really?
Will that matter, as you tend to write only superficial reports??

” A-series are application processors, H-series are for home entertainment, R-series for the IoT, and V-Series for video camera applications”

Wow…
where did you find that out??
Shame on you, cnxsoft!!

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

@Jean-Luc Aufranc (CNXSoft) Of course it’s crazy but it’s also what happens always. And they do not only f*ck up such announcements by mixing ‘we have a new board more compatible to RPi’ with ‘Hey, as usual we can exchange identical SoCs named differently on our boards’ but also as usual their specs are wrong (I did not encounter a single time that those careless SinoVoip people managed to get this right, they copy&paste from here to there and you never know what’s information and what’s just BS). Maybe it’s just a strategy to scare away every potential user with… Read more »

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

cnxsoft :
Anyway, thanks. I’ve updated the post, so it does not contain any more “fake news” hopefully.

Well, I still think both title and contents are wrong since BPi M2 Berry is said to rely on R40, there’s also not a single picture or reference combining this Berry with V40. All the confusion around Berry/Ultra and R40 vs V40 is only based on this weird SinoVoip guy responsible for ‘documentation’ (LOL!), ‘specifications’ (AKA ‘copy&paste’ from other pages without checking facts even once), announcements and also forum moderation and (not providing any real) support there.

Peter
Peter
3 years ago
LinAdmin
LinAdmin
3 years ago

I just wonder how long these messies will survive?

lionwang
3 years ago

BPI-M2 Ultra and BPI-M2 Berry , all can support allwinner R40 and V40, and image is same . R40=V40 for chip hardware ,just remark. but allwinner support different SDK . so, just software not same .but for development baord , banana pi image can run both chips .for user , it is same. just chip mark not same.

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

@lionwang So R40 and V40 are the same. Only remaining question: how long will it take you this time to release schematics for BPi M2 Berry? Weeks? Months? A Year as with your ‘routerboard’ R1? What’s so hard with releasing this document so users can check whether they can reliably power this Berry (avoiding Micro USB) or not? You still claim ‘open source hardware’ which is of course a lie and you know it (or do you really don’t get it what’s missing to claim OSHW compliance: please read through https://www.oshwa.org/definition/chinese/ and then either start to follow these guidelines or… Read more »

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

@Jean-Luc Aufranc (CNXSoft) Of course they should be able to do this board for $32. They sell a stripped down version of M2+ called ‘M2+ EDU’ for $22 on Aliexpress which translates to €25 in DE. I guess they try to stay below €40 in Europe to sell this Berry as a direct Raspberry Pi competitor. This target audience is clueless anyway so they will succeed. Their European distributor currently focuses on selling strange things to Raspberry users (eg. mSATA HATs for SSDs or UPS HATs called ‘StromPi’) and I believe they’re the ones who defined the ‘design’ of BPi… Read more »

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

@LinAdmin ‘Survive’? This Berry will be soon their top seller. At least in Europe if they’re able to keep Raspberry pricing (~36€). And if it’s priced that way it also becomes a logical replacement for the A20 based Banana Pi once mainline kernel support for R40/V40 is ready. SATA performance with R40/V40 is as bad as with A20 but network and overall performance is better. With a SATA connected disk we should get NAS read speeds of +100 MB/s (same for write speeds when using good settings as long as the amount of data fits into memory). The only open… Read more »

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

cnxsoft : We’ll have it see if they can keep the $32 (+ shipping) promise, something they’ve not always been able to do in the past. Searched for it: http://forum.banana-pi.org/t/banana-pi-bpi-m2-ultra-quad-core-single-board-computer/2225/7 So with BPi M2 Ultra those ‘about 35-40 USD’ are $50 in reality and here in DE this board costs €60 (taxes included without shipping). If their ‘$32 (+ shipping) promise’ will result in a similar $45 / €55 real price this board is not worth a look since still too expensive. I wonder why there’s still no cheap R40/V40 board accepting 12V on a common 5.5/2.1mm barrel jack using… Read more »

JotaMG
JotaMG
3 years ago

Tkaiser: I’ve been using the Bpi m2u R40 for the last 2 weeks as my main home server (with a heavy postgresql database running on it), and I’m very happy with it. Even with the “performance” governor”, and >28º ambient temperatures, it runs cold, not need a dissipater. Their last ubuntu image is also very stable. Also love their install method, via bpi-copy, much more easy than Armbian. The Emmc is fast enough, and overall performance is very good. On the downsides, missed a headless server image, lost hours trimming down their ubuntu desktop image, and of course, a updated… Read more »

theguyuk
theguyuk
3 years ago

One thing that seems missing from all these different makes of SBC is they all lack design parts some people want.

I suggest perhaps what’s needed is a community agreed SBC reference design. Yes that is dam hard to do and agree on, but if enough potential customers get together, and discuss openly and respectfully with each other, on what a ideal or desired, SBC spec would be.

Then made it freely available to manufacturers.

Just need the SBC manufactures to take note, if they would?

Seems better approach than present lottery of hoping one manufacture gets it right.

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

JotaMG : So, i don’t know what you have against Sinovoip, but this R40 board is not as bad as you describe. Huh? Which R40 board are you talking about? Care to check their forum full of complaints and reports of instabilities? http://forum.banana-pi.org/c/Banana-pi-BPI-M2-Ultra — are all those customers liars or is there something seriously wrong? Like for example introducing HDMI display problems by applying their ‘quality control passed’ sticker? The problem with these guys is that they’re absolutely careless. All the time they provide incorrect information and do not even correct their mistakes if they have been told and confirmed… Read more »

JotaMG
JotaMG
3 years ago

@theguyuk

That’s not the way to do business.
And, of course you will never reach a consensus.
What this industry needs – and here the community can help – is to have a common “bios” design, somehow more easy to hack and extend than the current u-boot, and a standard plug-n-play hardware design, that can easily extend the SoC’s main lines and buses to the outside.

JotaMG
JotaMG
3 years ago

@tkaiser haha I don’t want to dispute with you, but I am viewing this from a different angle than you. yes, I’ve also read all that reports on the forums, and I’ve been puzzled, because I’ve not had the single small problem with the board. Should we believe all that is written on the forums? (and even on this blog ;-)) For instance, about the “Hdmi problem and the QC sticker”, the guy said: “I removed the QC passed sticker from below the HDMI port and I cleaned up the PCB and HDMI port with Methylated spiirits, now it works.… Read more »

JotaMG
JotaMG
3 years ago

I’ve just remembered that when i’ve installed the ubuntu image, the hdmi did not work for the first couple of boots, I did not worry because I was going to get rid of the desktop, then, without any change (or cleaning :-)) it worked and I’ve got a nice Mate desktop.

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

JotaMG : because I’ve not had the single small problem with the board It sounds you didn’t stress test your device so far? People on the forum complain about instabilities and a reproducibility when using memtester. R40 user manual talks about 576 MHz max DRAM cockspeed, T3 product page at allwinnertech.com (T3 seems to be the same as R40/V40 just with another business unit being responsible for) even mentions ‘Supports 32-bit DDR3/DDR3L/LPDDR2/LPDDR3 up to 580MHZ’ but DRAM settings in SinoVoip’s fex files (and used with their OS images) are 648 MHz (and of course that brain-damaged guy being responsible for… Read more »

lordzahl
lordzahl
3 years ago

@tkaiser @JotaMG I also have the m2u and am quite ok with it for now. While the mainline kernel is missed (e.g. for up to date btrfs support), the network speed and general IO speed is ok (for now), since everything has to go over wifi anyways. The debian image works ok for me as a headless server. I only had one failure yet, which was probably power supply related (2×2.5″ HD instead of one and copying from one to the other). So if someone has a concrete advise for a fitting supply (in germany or from china), please let… Read more »

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

JotaMG : My opinion is that this Bpi guys are trying to improve and do better, and they deserve this credit! After reading through some of the forum contents (preparing currently some sort of a poll system for Armbian developers to decide whether we want to support certain devices or not) I really don’t know what you mean, eg. http://forum.banana-pi.org/t/serial-port-path/3352 (really, that’s their 1st level ‘support’) And the guy doing ‘documentation’ is obviously only capable of copy&paste without the slightest idea what he’s doing (maybe not understanding english at all?): https://bananapi.gitbooks.io/bpi-m3/content/en/linux-sunxiwiki.html (wording in linux-sunxi wiki has been changed in the… Read more »

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

In Germany BPi M2 Berry appears in first online ships ready to preorder for €39 (VAT included). Advertising clearly targets RPi 3 customers tricking them into believing they get high speed SATA here (nope, it’s still as slow as on the original A20 Bananas) and they could re-use all their peripherals, especially their PSU: good luck with Micro USB, under-voltage and missing under-voltage detection circuitry on BPi M2 Berry. But maybe there is something that can compensate from crappy powering. Unfortunately this vendor is too stupid to get the meaning of ‘open source hardware’ he constantly uses to describe their… Read more »

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

@Jean-Luc Aufranc (CNXSoft) Literally every other board will show better performance than any of those crippled Raspberries with their single USB2 connection. Even a $7 Orange Pi Zero will outperform any RPi 3 by magnitudes if it’s about storage performance and especially combined storage/network performance (add another $7 for a GbE USB dongle and you get 30MB/s NAS performance). But that’s not the point, it’s about selling a board as a direct replacement for Raspberries and even mentioning it ‘can run Raspbian’ so clueless customers expect everything being the same (‘look even the same software is running!’) and this M2… Read more »

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

Also funny: SinoVoip does not even improve in anything if they get everything for free. Their OS images for this device here or M2U are based on kernel 3.10.65. This kernel version has been released 29 months ago and misses tons of general and security fixes. What do they do with that? Don’t give a sh*t as usual. What is community doing? Community as usual does their work, patching the kernel up to most recent 3.10 LTS version so at least known security vulnerabilities got fixed. What does SinoVoip do? Ignore this of course even if been told multiple times.… Read more »

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

The brain damaged retards producing this board still fail to

– merge the pull request from @Dan-And to leave their customers vulnerable to unpatched kernel security issues
– provide schematics for this board so users can check and correct their mistakes
– fix the stability issues of the related BPi M2 Ultra (either related to DRAM overclocked or parts undervolted)
– provide any performance numbers

A lot of users just look at marketing BS like ‘real SATA’ and will buy this board even if performance will horribly suck compared to much cheaper other boards available soon: https://forum.armbian.com/index.php?/topic/1925-some-storage-benchmarks-on-sbcs/&do=findComment&comment=34192

lionwang
3 years ago

@tkaiser
thank you , i also can see you attack banana pi at everywhere . thank you for you spend more time to say about banana pi .:)

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

@lionwang
You really don’t get it. The wall of ignorance you built protects you from getting the idea how much easier everything would be if you start to improve instead of ignoring.

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago
lionwang
3 years ago

@tkaiser

If you become friendly and tolerant, and stop showing off your annoying aggression, it will be easier.Because even I’m trying to ignore anything you say.
We should try to see each other’s efforts and give support, which will make many things easy.
So, in some ways, you think we’re ignorant, whereas in some ways, you show enough ignorance.You ignore our efforts.

lionwang
3 years ago

@tkaiser
yes, i read it ,and learn a lot, but you need know , MTK full support BPI-R2 , someone of MTK do many many work to support open source ,they do the best now , so , MIKEY , Gary ,Ning also do they best. this is banana pi team t first project coworker with MTK , we all work hard ,

lionwang
3 years ago

@tkaiser

So you think allwinner supports who’s best.Orange PI???They do less, you want something like this??Or, as you said, we’re garbage, and we’re going to do nothing, let the community, the software is all done by armbian, so that you can achieve your goal, right?

You see why I chose to ignore you.

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

lionwang : You see why I chose to ignore you. Yes, that totally explains why you’re not merging pull requests on github containing important security patches and fix your three main issues (providing no schematics, no correct information/documentation, no sources). Good luck being trappid in a stupid little world feeling attacked by a single guy while not understanding at the same time that all of the above are basic requirements no one has to ask for: providing schematics, correct information/documentation, sources, fixing security issues especially if you get this totally for free. It’s amazing that you don’t get this. And… Read more »

lionwang
3 years ago

@tkaiser why we not merging pull requests on github ?? for allwinner have update tinaLinux kernel ,we need to update our code from allwinner , we must do this work at first . and facat have build a github for BPI-M2 Ultra ,we have all place at https://bananapi.gitbooks.io/bpi-m2-ultra-open-source-single-board-computer/content/bpi-m2ultrasourcecodeongithub.html why we use micro USB for power ? when we design hardware , we all compatibility DC and micro USB interface. if you are maker ,you can easy to find micro USB adapter , if you want to do a real product ,you can use DC port.Different applications, different choices. open souce… Read more »

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

lionwang : and facat have build a github for BPI-M2 Ultra ,we have all place at Thank you for these insights. They’re frightening. It’s really impossible to get through your wall of ignorance. Thank you for publicly documenting this 🙂 Since ‘facat’ got zero help on your forum (care to remember that you ignore all user problems there?) he cloned your sources adding one single potential fix (or the try of a fix). It’s amazing that you don’t merge this fix if you think it would help and it’s also amazing that you mention this other repo at all since… Read more »

Peter
Peter
3 years ago

lionwang : Different applications, different choices. I appreciate that, but really, we’re using microUSB for power? With contacts rated at at 1.8A at best, and not even considering the fact that the USB2 spec sets power ouput at 500mA per port (and a whopping 900mA USB3). Now even though the USB charge standard exists and ranges between 1.5 and 3.0A, and is clearly what you intend the end user to use, why confuse them and use a connector which will tempt them to use unreliable power supplies, crappy USB leads, and will simply end in tears and complaints later down… Read more »

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

Peter : why confuse them and use a connector which will tempt them to use unreliable power supplies, crappy USB leads, and will simply end in tears and complaints later down the path when they encounter stability issues and corruption. I assume that’s something ‘SIMAC Electronics Handel GmbH’ is responsible for. They asked for a cheap board with Gigabit Ethernet and SATA that can be sold as a direct RPi replacement. Then you need of course also the crappy DC-IN connector so people are able to fail with their phone chargers and insufficient USB cables. From an engineering point of… Read more »

Peter
Peter
3 years ago

It’s nonsense like this that makes me think when I was looking for a board to make my own simple file share NAS (plus linux SBC playtoy) after the store-bought one I had been using failed that I could have easily made worse decisions that a Cubietruck. It has ended up being a stable board, with a sane barrel power connector, onboard sata, and GbE. I know I could have done better, and obviously a lot worse, especially if I was looking again now, because this board would have been on my list of boards to consider… if I didn’t… Read more »

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

Peter : Use a micro barrel jack, and get it right! Interesting insights from an electrical engineer talking about another Banana Pi product that still uses Micro USB for DC-IN (no new PCB revision to fix this within 2 1/2 years!) and is also supposed to power a 2.5″ HDD just like the M2 Berry now: 5V power for some hardisk is not good to work , but we test . if you use 5.5V , 2.A will work fine . so we do 5.5V , 2.1A power for R1. 5.5V sounds like a huge voltage drop?! Ah, sorry, we’re… Read more »

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

cnxsoft : @tkaiser I like how you use web archive, instead of direct links to banana pi forums. Well, this was their first forum that isn’t available any more. They moved it to a new host and deleted the contents in a way that also Google cache doesn’t list anything any more destroying a lot of community generated knowledge collected there in the beginning (just try bananapi.com/index.php/forum/ now). From their point of view it made a lot of sense to deal with their own old forum that way since it’s only documenting that this vendor now fails the 3rd year… Read more »

tkaiser
tkaiser
3 years ago

Maybe also important for BPi M2 Berry users soon. Hardware vendor simply don’t giving a sh*t about instability problems so community needs to fix all their mistakes: http://forum.banana-pi.org/t/an-unofficial-method-to-solve-instability-problem/3495

(the @charles guy there is banned and many of his posts got deleted)

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